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JBox
Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 64
Location: U.S.
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 Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:53 am Post subject: |
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I am a male, new to this forum. I am also new with comments on women’s MMA although I have followed the sport for many years.
I am an advocate for US women’s professional boxing. Unfortunately, there is very little left in that sport.
I watched the Elite/XC contests on CBS and the following are my observations about the woman’s fight.
Kaitlin Young
You took too many punches to the face, and most could have been slipped or avoided. Train with a boxing coach on defensive skills. Bobbing and weaving would have caused Carano to miss. And use the left jab as a defensive tool (or right jab to confuse a fighter accustomed only to right-hand opponents).
Footwork. One step back or to the side and Carano’s front kicks miss. Carano was exhausted after the first round (her admission) so making her move and miss would exhaust her more.
Leg kicks. Your leg kicks were good. I recommend repeated kicks to the same leg until your opponent sees a pattern and then land a head kick or punch. You stopped opponents with head kicks before.
Contracts. You let Carano off the hook by accepting money for her weight violation. Forcing her to lose another 4.5 pounds would have further weakened her already dehydrated state. One article stated “Carano was saved by Young's decision to accept 12 1/2 percent of her foe's purse instead of making Carano shed the extra pounds.”
You had more than one opponent. You were fighting Carano, her extra weight, a promoter, a commission, and a television network. Good effort.
Gina Carano
Being known as “the female face of MMA” is somewhat of a curse. You are the target for cheap shots and jealous opponents.
Cardio conditioning. You were winded after one round.
Make weight. 4.5 over and the fight still happened. There is an old adage in boxing that when the promoter owns the fighter, the promoter also owns the officials. Your next opponent may not be so forgiving.
NJACB
Some athletic commissions are good, some are bad, some are rubber stamps for promoters, and most are understaffed. I don’t know the NJACB, but I’m suspicious when legal counsel attempts to explain the controversies. My questions to him are those the better commissions have addressed: did the commission have the authority to stop the fight, are the medical personnel assigned to this event certified for combat sports, did you test all fighters for banned substances, what are these substances tested, and do you conduct random testing?
Promoter and Network
It was despicable to keep Kaitlin Young from post-fight activities - interviews, party.
The controversies surrounding this card and the actions of officials have overloaded the news media and websites. The next event must be squeaky clean and free of controversy.
The viewing audience ratings were very high for this inaugural event on network television. How the controversies are handled and the next fight card will determine if the viewing public returns.
To contact CBS about this and future events, send your mail to:
Mr. Kelly Kahl
Senior Exec VP of Programming
CBS Television Network
51 West 52nd St.
New York, NY 10019
Fighters
Stick to the terms of contracts and ignore intimidation and payoffs by promoters for rules violations.
Ask for an advance on your purse, non-refundable if possible.
Contractually exclude officials who have wronged you or others.
Expect fighters to be close to their walk-around weight at fight time.
Include interviews, festivities, and media coverage in your contracts.
If interviews are not aired, require they are posted on network’s website (with video and photos) and with network acknowledgement of their existence.
Air any wrongdoing or shady deals – either publish it or post it anonymously.
Summary
Women’s professional boxing in the US did not address these problems and, for all practical purposes, is dead. US women’s MMA has a chance to get it right. |
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oslooskar
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Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 780
Location: La Honda, California
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| JBox wrote: |
| Kaitlin Young: Train with a boxing coach on defensive skills. Bobbing and weaving would have caused Carano to miss. And use the left jab as a defensive tool |
Hopefully your advice will not fall on deaf ears because there is no doubt in my mind that Kaitlin Young would have made Carano’s life miserable for her if she had had an educated left jab in her arsenal.
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Rox21
Pro Fighter
Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Posts: 1227
Location: Kanagawa/Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Stick to the terms of contracts and ignore intimidation and payoffs by promoters for rules violations.
--- How do you stick to terms if the alternative is not to fight? And you've been training forever, and it's your big chance, and you have lots of sponsors?
Ask for an advance on your purse, non-refundable if possible.
-- What if they say, "no?"
Contractually exclude officials who have wronged you or others.
--How, and what do you mean?
Expect fighters to be close to their walk-around weight at fight time.
-- What if they don't want to? (I do, though)
Include interviews, festivities, and media coverage in your contracts.
--good idea
If interviews are not aired, require they are posted on network’s website (with video and photos) and with network acknowledgement of their existence.
--another good idea
Air any wrongdoing or shady deals – either publish it or post it anonymously.
-good idea |
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JBox
Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 64
Location: U.S.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Rox21 wrote: |
Stick to the terms of contracts and ignore intimidation and payoffs by promoters for rules violations.
--- How do you stick to terms if the alternative is not to fight? And you've been training forever, and it's your big chance, and you have lots of sponsors?
Ask for an advance on your purse, non-refundable if possible.
-- What if they say, "no?"
Contractually exclude officials who have wronged you or others.
--How, and what do you mean?
Expect fighters to be close to their walk-around weight at fight time.
-- What if they don't want to? (I do, though)
Include interviews, festivities, and media coverage in your contracts.
--good idea
If interviews are not aired, require they are posted on network’s website (with video and photos) and with network acknowledgement of their existence.
--another good idea
Air any wrongdoing or shady deals – either publish it or post it anonymously.
-good idea |
Stick to the terms of contracts and ignore intimidation and payoffs by promoters for rules violations.
--- How do you stick to terms if the alternative is not to fight? And you've been training forever, and it's your big chance, and you have lots of sponsors?
I didn’t say it’s easy. I know an opponent who was threatened with physical harm if he didn’t accept additional money to permit the breach of contract by the promoter’s fighter on fight day. The opponent threatened to walk out on the fight and the promoter was desperate. The opponent accepted the additional money and was injured in the fight requiring hospitalization.
You’ll also hear threats and intimidation like “accept my terms or you’ll never fight on my promotion or at this venue again.”
I recommend you, your team, and your sponsors discuss a possibility like this so there are no surprises if you decide to walk out of a fight. And if you do walk out, let the world know why. Non-disclosure agreements do not apply to breached contracts.
Ask for an advance on your purse, non-refundable if possible.
-- What if they say, "no?"
If the promoter refuses to pay an advance, examine reasons for his refusal. Is he lacking capital to pay you? Is he expecting revenue from the gate and media to pay your purse? Or is he just playing hardball with you? And are you willing to accept his refusal? An advance means he’s serious about having you on the card and it helps cover your expenses. Top-tier female pro boxers receive 25-50 percent of their purses before a fight.
Contractually exclude officials who have wronged you or others.
--How, and what do you mean?
If referees, judges, or other officials have been unfair to you or others, add them to your contract as those who will not control your fight. In pro boxing, teams agree to the referees and judges for their fights. The goal is to weed out the biased or incompetent ones. “Hometown decisions” will not help women’s MMA grow.
Expect fighters to be close to their walk-around weight at fight time.
-- What if they don't want to? (I do, though)
Unless weigh-ins are moved to fight day or double weigh-ins are employed, fighters will reduce their weight through dehydration techniques and re-hydrate between weigh-in and the fight. Dehydration is a health hazard. So if a fighter walks-around at 155 and weighs in at 145, she will probably be 155 at fight time.
Anything can be put in a contract. I recommend each fighter create her own contract, including all the things she has seen go right with contracts. It’s a living document, and change it as needed. Compare your contract to what a promoter offers you and negotiate from there. If you become big enough in the sport, you can present your contract to a promoter as a take-it-or-leave-it agreement.
For fear of generalization, a promoter does not have your best interest in mind. The only fighter a promoter has concerns for is the one he has signed to a multi-fight or multi-year agreement. Promoters and commissions will not protect you from wrongdoing. Only you can protest yourself.
Most of the promoters in MMA today will fold or leave the sport. The good and properly funded ones will survive. The athletes should be part of the vetting process. |
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defshepard
Fightergirls elite poster
Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 701
Location: Aurora, Illinois, U.S.A
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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JBox wrote:
| Quote: |
Summary
Women’s professional boxing in the US did not address these problems and, for all practical purposes, is dead. US women’s MMA has a chance to get it right |
Your post is the best one yet. Your analysis is correct and your observations are very keen and professional. You have confirmed my darkest suspicions about the true nature of this fight. I will say no more about that. It is to bad you could not have been there to coach Kaitlin Young 12 weeks ago. You could have won the fight for her. Hindsight is always 20-20. I only hope Kaitlin is back training hard in Mauy Thai and boxing and will be better prepared next time. Assuming there ever is a "next time". You are right about Women's boxing. It is dead as of now. US women's MMA has in my opinion a rapidly fading chance to get it right. I give them about 2-4 years at best. And then it will be to late and they will go the way of Women's boxing. This would be tragic for such a young and promising sport.  |
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hanoverfist
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 317
Location: Seattle wa.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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before there was womens mma there was womens boxing and just like all fledgling endevours it struggled for acceptence in a male dominated arena and for all pratical purposes succeeded, getting tv time and ppv events and big names on talk shows, however it is corrupt just like all boxing and the promoters are a big part of that. Is it dead? Hell no! The last ppv event that just took place, Holms vs Sanders, was one of the best events put together in a long time. And the fight card that was shown the night before on Fox sports Best damn was also fully stacked with talent(not without contreversy of course). I for one am encouraged by the recent opportunities and match ups that have taken place in womens boxing and look forward to more.
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defshepard
Fightergirls elite poster
Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 701
Location: Aurora, Illinois, U.S.A
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| hanoverfist wrote: |
| before there was womens mma there was womens boxing and just like all fledgling endevours it struggled for acceptence in a male dominated arena and for all pratical purposes succeeded, getting tv time and ppv events and big names on talk shows, however it is corrupt just like all boxing and the promoters are a big part of that. Is it dead? Hell no! The last ppv event that just took place, Holms vs Sanders, was one of the best events put together in a long time. And the fight card that was shown the night before on Fox sports Best damn was also fully stacked with talent(not without contreversy of course). I for one am encouraged by the recent opportunities and match ups that have taken place in womens boxing and look forward to more. |
Hanoverfist, you are right about that ppv event. I bought it online and watched most of it before falling asleep in my chair in front of my computer. It was very damn good. I saw some excellent boxing on display. There is great talent out there. But I worry that women's MMA and MMA in general will follow in the footsteps of boxing. Becoming fixed and corrupt, with the fans turning away. Women's boxing it seems to me has become marginalized in recent years. And thats wrong and I worry the same fate awaits women's MMA. I would hate to see this great and developing sport, with all of its opportunities, in so many different fields of sports(wrestling,bjj, and kickboxing)pushed off to the sidelines or no longer taken seriously because of corruption and mismangement. |
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defshepard
Fightergirls elite poster
Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 701
Location: Aurora, Illinois, U.S.A
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| P.S. Hanoverfist, I fell asleep because of one to many beers. Not because of the boxing. Best damn boxing I had seen in a long time! I really like the Holly Dunaway vs Wendy Rodriguiz fight. |
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JBox
Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 64
Location: U.S.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| defshepard wrote: |
| hanoverfist wrote: |
| before there was womens mma there was womens boxing and just like all fledgling endevours it struggled for acceptence in a male dominated arena and for all pratical purposes succeeded, getting tv time and ppv events and big names on talk shows, however it is corrupt just like all boxing and the promoters are a big part of that. Is it dead? Hell no! The last ppv event that just took place, Holms vs Sanders, was one of the best events put together in a long time. And the fight card that was shown the night before on Fox sports Best damn was also fully stacked with talent(not without contreversy of course). I for one am encouraged by the recent opportunities and match ups that have taken place in womens boxing and look forward to more. |
Hanoverfist, you are right about that ppv event. I bought it online and watched most of it before falling asleep in my chair in front of my computer. It was very damn good. I saw some excellent boxing on display. There is great talent out there. But I worry that women's MMA and MMA in general will follow in the footsteps of boxing. Becoming fixed and corrupt, with the fans turning away. Women's boxing it seems to me has become marginalized in recent years. And thats wrong and I worry the same fate awaits women's MMA. I would hate to see this great and developing sport, with all of its opportunities, in so many different fields of sports(wrestling,bjj, and kickboxing)pushed off to the sidelines or no longer taken seriously because of corruption and mismangement. |
There were few buys for the 6/13 PPV event. Promoting a niche sport like female pro boxing on PPV is not a wise business plan. The ratings for the 6/12 FSN card were better but hardly approached the 3-to-4.5 million audience of the CBS MMA telecast.
Both boxing events had some bad decisions and the boxing forums are ablaze with heated posts. Albuquerque has a history of bad scoring and lived up to its reputation.
Whether or not corruption exists in women's pro boxing, the perception is there. Promoters and sanctioning bodies are intelligent and are quite capable of avoiding any possible RICO investigations.
Pro boxing does present a threat to pro MMA. Boxing promoters are crossing over to MMA, bringing their good and bad habits with them. The influence promoters exert on sanctioning bodies and local commissions could hurt MMA as well.
That’s why it is important for the athletes to voice their concerns when they see wrongdoing. If MMA models itself after pro boxing, it too will be a suspect sport and will not fulfill its potential.
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defshepard
Fightergirls elite poster
Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 701
Location: Aurora, Illinois, U.S.A
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| JBox wrote: |
| defshepard wrote: |
| hanoverfist wrote: |
| before there was womens mma there was womens boxing and just like all fledgling endevours it struggled for acceptence in a male dominated arena and for all pratical purposes succeeded, getting tv time and ppv events and big names on talk shows, however it is corrupt just like all boxing and the promoters are a big part of that. Is it dead? Hell no! The last ppv event that just took place, Holms vs Sanders, was one of the best events put together in a long time. And the fight card that was shown the night before on Fox sports Best damn was also fully stacked with talent(not without contreversy of course). I for one am encouraged by the recent opportunities and match ups that have taken place in womens boxing and look forward to more. |
Hanoverfist, you are right about that ppv event. I bought it online and watched most of it before falling asleep in my chair in front of my computer. It was very damn good. I saw some excellent boxing on display. There is great talent out there. But I worry that women's MMA and MMA in general will follow in the footsteps of boxing. Becoming fixed and corrupt, with the fans turning away. Women's boxing it seems to me has become marginalized in recent years. And thats wrong and I worry the same fate awaits women's MMA. I would hate to see this great and developing sport, with all of its opportunities, in so many different fields of sports(wrestling,bjj, and kickboxing)pushed off to the sidelines or no longer taken seriously because of corruption and mismangement. |
There were few buys for the 6/13 PPV event. Promoting a niche sport like female pro boxing on PPV is not a wise business plan. The ratings for the 6/12 FSN card were better but hardly approached the 3-to-4.5 million audience of the CBS MMA telecast.
Both boxing events had some bad decisions and the boxing forums are ablaze with heated posts. Albuquerque has a history of bad scoring and lived up to its reputation.
Whether or not corruption exists in women's pro boxing, the perception is there. Promoters and sanctioning bodies are intelligent and are quite capable of avoiding any possible RICO investigations.
Pro boxing does present a threat to pro MMA. Boxing promoters are crossing over to MMA, bringing their good and bad habits with them. The influence promoters exert on sanctioning bodies and local commissions could hurt MMA as well.
That’s why it is important for the athletes to voice their concerns when they see wrongdoing. If MMA models itself after pro boxing, it too will be a suspect sport and will not fulfill its potential. |
JBox,
Thats my concern and greatest fear. Thats one reason why boxing has waned in popularity over the past decade. If Women's MMA is percived to be "fixed" or "rigged" or as in the case of Albuqureque, showing bad scoring and poor descions with what many see as regional bias against the out of state fighter. Then fans will start to disappear or leave. MMA is popular right now because so many like relative purity of the sport.Among other reasons.Well, JBox, Hanoverfist, you see oppotunitity, I see danger. Two sides of the same coin. Only time will tell how this all works out. Thank-you both for your input and remarks. God Bless.  |
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rudrah
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
Posts: 17
Location: Oregon PNW
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject: Fight "Rigging" |
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| If Women's MMA is percived to be "fixed" or "rigged" or as in the case of Albuqureque, |
Outside of a fighter taking a bribe to take a fall, or contestants following a script, as in roller derby, how is a fight "rigged'?  (but not very... sigh.)
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"sure she can, just get out of her way" |
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defshepard
Fightergirls elite poster
Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 701
Location: Aurora, Illinois, U.S.A
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:58 am Post subject: Re: Fight "Rigging" |
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| rudrah wrote: |
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| If Women's MMA is percived to be "fixed" or "rigged" or as in the case of Albuqureque, |
Outside of a fighter taking a bribe to take a fall, or contestants following a script, as in roller derby, how is a fight "rigged'? (but not very... sigh.) |
If it is perceived as being rigged, or tainted in any way by the fans. Example; EliteXC on CBS. Days afterword many hardcore fans screamed foul on the stoppages. It does not actaully have to be rigged or dirty. If the perception is such then you have a problem. Also how do we know if a fight is not rigged or someone has taken a bribe. We often have to go on go faith snd what we see withour own two eyes. |
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defshepard
Fightergirls elite poster
Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 701
Location: Aurora, Illinois, U.S.A
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:17 am Post subject: |
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Rudrah,
Mind you sir, I see your point. And you do have a very good one. I agree with you up to a certain point. Well, anyways take care and thank-you for what you said.  |
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treelizard
Fightergirls elite poster
Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 1002
Location: WI (formerly Tucson)
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GFC
Fightergirls elite poster
Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 1297
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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agreed, well thought out and administered posting, JBox...
~L
| treelizard wrote: |
| JBox, thanks for your thought-out analysis. I'm glad you're posting on here. |
[/quote]
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